MachineCodex Support

I already purchased dateline prior to the app store, and updated to 1.0 in the app...now I can't update to 1.1 because the app store does not recognize my installation....so how do I get the app store to see my install, or to update the app?

Hi Jimlat,

Apple does not allow apps purchased outside of the store to be converted into App Store apps.

DateLine 1.1.0 is simply the Mac App Store version of DateLine 1.0.0. It is identical. I know this is confusing, but it is the only way I can maintain an App Store version and an independent version for now.

If you don't want to buy DateLine again on the App Store, you are free to continue using DateLine 1.0.0. I will continue providing free updates via Sparkle to current license holders until DateLine 1.0.9, at least. They will just lag one version number behind the version on the App Store, but be identical.

If you do want to have the very latest version going forward, you will need to buy DateLine again on the App Store.

By the time Mac OS X 10.7 Lion comes out, DateLine will be App Store only. So at some point I will be requesting that everyone buy the app again, in any case. Maintaining two separate versions is a lot of work that I should be investing in new features. Apple does not allow upgrade pricing nor do they provide any way for me to bring existing customers to the App Store version.

"If you do want to have the very latest version going forward, you will need to buy DateLine again on the App Store. "

You have lost me as a customer forever then. I believe the App Store is evil incarnate. No offense intended, but I now regret helping you develop this app.

@davidfoster

OK, it is a bit annoying that two identical versions exist side by side and can not be converted. But hey, you'll get your updates until 1.0.9 and even then you can still use DateLine until your computer breaks down.
As for myself, I will use my old license as long as it works and if I am still convinced, I might buy a new license in the App Store (we are talking about 4,95$ (not 49,50$) for a very useful app). I do not regret having helped to develop DateLine.
And I understand that small code developers use the App Store to earn their living (you would probably, too)

Hi guys,

I am still considering my policy for App Store vs traditional licensing, so please feel free to add your comments and criticisms here. Thanks to netz and david for your contributions.

In case anyone is interested, here's what I'm thinking.

Developers traditionally charge for full version updates. It has always been my intention to honour existing licenses up til version 1.0. After that, I was intending to offer discount pricing for existing license holders to upgrade to 1.1 and higher.

The Mac App Store was announced within my release timeframe for 1.0, so I thought it would be a great opportunity to simplify and move DateLine licensing to Apple's Store. Keep in mind that of course I am not intending to stop anyone using the DateLine version they have now. We are talking about licensing for all future sales for versions higher than 1.1.

Unfortunately this change will be inevitably confusing for users due to Apple's policy of not allowing previously valid licenses to be imported to the App Store. In other words there is no current way for a developer to convert an existing license to an App Store license.

A number of people have asked why DateLine 1.1 is only available on the App Store. To explain, I need to clarify a few misconceptions.

Firstly, as I have said, version 1.0 and 1.1 are identical from the user's perspective. No one with 1.0 is missing out on anything that 1.1 users have.

There is also a common confusion about the "Installed" status of apps in the App Store app. In case anyone has misunderstood, there is a distinction between an app showing as "Installed" in the App Store, and it being an actual App Store licensed and managed app which will receive automatic updates through the store.

For example, Panic uses the same version number for the indie and App Store version of Coda. If you have independently purchased Coda 1.7, the App Store shows Coda as "Installed" because it exists on your computer and has the same version number as the App Store version you are browsing.

All that would be required for DateLine to show up as "Installed" in the App Store is for me to match the version numbers between the independent and App Store versions of DateLine. This is all that Coda, et al are doing. I believe this to be deceptive: it implies that your independently purchased copy of, say, Coda will be managed like other apps you bought through the App Store. This is not the case.

The only way to get the advantages of the App Store: automatic updates, simplified licensing, etc; is to purchase an app through the App Store.

Additionally, where I have said that DateLine 1.0 and 1.1 are identical, I mean they are feature identical. They differ in that the App Store version lacks my custom licensing code and the Sparkle updater framework, as these are prohibited by Apple. Therefore if I released these two different versions with the same version number, well, that would also be confusing. They are different versions, albeit with the same user facing feature set.

This is why I have chosen, for now, to go with the distinct version numbers for the indie and App Store versions.

I hope you can see how this is a complex issue, and something I have and am continuing to struggle with. I am certainly appreciative of the support I have had from all DateLine customers.

However, if no one is willing to pay for an upgrade, I will not be able to continue improving the product. That is business: every decision has costs and consequences. Supporting two versions indefinitely is simply not an option when I need to be improving the product and reaching new markets in order to survive, not fiddling about matching code between different branches of the same product.

thats really annoying. I bought dateline last year for $4,95 and now after update to 1.0.0 the app doesn't work as registered app. where can i download the non app store version 1.0.0?

Hi bithunter,

When you say it doesn't work as a registered app, what happens? Is it just that you need to re-enter your license info into the Register... box in the DateLine menu?

Cheers,

Alex

Hi bithunter, you may need to reset your preferences. Go to the Help Menu and choose Reset Preferences.

Will Dateline 1.0.0 be compatible with Lion? Or is the OS so different that an entirely new version will be necessary?

Hi Gooey,

By the time Lion is released, I will have a version that works with it. There are quite a few differences, and Apple are encouraging developers to start updating their apps already.

Cheers

Alex

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. You've used the analogy to Panic in their handling of the Mac App Store. They acknowledge that the vast majority of their user base is NOT on the MAS but purchased through their website. Thus, they continue to provide support for both of those versions, and will for the majority of the foreseeable future. I payed you my $5 for DateLine, and in the comment box I put "$5 is a very reasonable price to charge for such a great program... Thanks..." It is unacceptable that you are discontinuing support for your non MAS product without an acceptable form of compensation. What's even more unacceptable is that you're essentially requiring that your current customers repurchase your product. It's equivalent to renting a hotel room, then upon arriving having to purchase the key to the room for the same price. You're charging $6 for this on the Mac App Store. You now require that I purchase this AGAIN for $6 in order to continue to receive updates. The only way that I would consider this as acceptable is if you were to change the price on the App Store to $4.99, the closest price to $4.95 AND provide a full refund of the outside purchase from PayPal given a MAS proof of purchase (i.e. receipt). You do also have 50 promo codes per version to give out, so keep that in mind. It's fine, even good, that you're changing your primary mode of purchase to the MAS, that's what I would do if I published Mac apps and not just iOS apps, but please don't insult and alienate your previously loyal customers with this borderline-illegal decision. Continue to support the non-MAS version. As far as the sparkle code and that, managing that is easy. Create two build/distribution profiles in Xcode, one for MAS and one for everyone else. Then call the code on the bundle to detect the profile (you can find this code with a quick Google search) and only if it's not the MAS profile then you can enable the sparkle updates code. I've used this technique before for different purposes and it works very well. Then when you publish an update, just build it for each profile and everybody's happy. Extra 30 seconds of work at build time, maximum. Then, if you still desire, at version 2.0 you can discontinue non-MAS updates. I stumbled upon this thread trying to redownload the app from your website, because for some reason I had replaced it with some trial MAS version or something. As of this point, however, I cannot even download a non-MAS version from your website, so essentially you stole my $5. Please don't bite the hand that feeds you, it's never a good idea.

Hi Senior Shizzle,

Please bear in mind that I have not broken any promises. DateLine 1.1 is watershed, and developers have the right to charge what they deem appropriate for watershed update licensing. I have always stated that I would be charging upgrade pricing for existing customers to upgrade beyond 1.0. So your suggestion of dishonesty on my part is offensive and uncalled for.

You are aware of the special upgrade offer? http://support.machinecodex.com/discussion/83/dateline-app-store-upgrade-special-offer/

Please also bear in mind that we are talking about the price of a beer for software that you may use every day. Indeed, as Apple have allowed no way for developers to charge for upgrades, switching to the App Store ensure that you will never have to pay for DateLine again, for as many Macs as you have.

I understand your anger, and I'm sorry that I have disappointed you. I am a hobbyist who is simply looking for a way to justify the incredible amount of time that software development takes so that I may continue developing. The revenue that DateLine generates is in no way commensurate with the amount of time it absorbs. It is becoming increasingly difficult to justify.

Panic are an extremely successful company, with resources that I simply do not have. Sure, I could continue supporting two versions, it is not impossible. But doing so would mean that I would have less time to spend improving my product and attracting new customers.

I'm not asking for your firstborn children here. It's a few dollars to support something that you presumably find useful. If you find that ridiculous, well, I'm really sorry.

Regards,

Alex

That's great but can you at least let me download the one I payed for?

I don't know where you're from, Alex, but if you're paying $6 for a beer then maybe that's where you got the mentality of ripping off your customers...

Also what do you mean by watershed? I've been employed as a developer for years and never heard that term. All I'm saying is that if you are trying to instigate a movement over to the App Store, AND you are discontinuing support otherwise, it would be proper of you to issue the full refund of $4.95 to previous users so that the upgrade price is just $1.04. It's not really that big of a compromise and it would keep people like me content. The first rule of any business is don't alienate your customers.

For future reference, you can always download the current indie DateLine binary from http://www.machinecodex.com/dateline/DateLine.zip

I have no intention of stopping support for customers of 1.0. What they will not get is indefinite updates.

Watershed releases are those that developers offer upgrade pricing for. DateLine 1.0/1.1 represents the first major version rollover, after 18 months of DateLine 0.x releases. It happened to coincide with the MAS launch, hence my adjustment of licensing strategy also coincided.

I try to keep my customers happy by making my software more functional and usable, and by charging a fair price for it. I believe that DateLine is competitively priced. It is up to individuals to decide whether the product and price suits their needs and budget.

I appreciate your support in the past, and I have explained my motives for my strategy going forward. It is again up to you whether you support this or not. I appreciate you sharing your views.

If you wish to continue this conversation, I am more than happy to do so privately. Please contact me at my email address.

This is insane...
You have customers that bought your app to support you and now all you can do is blame it on apple.
I bought this app and I installed it first every time i reformatted my laptop
but now you suddenly hit us with (apple does not support version crap) and your motive to move forward,.. move forward no one is stopping you. but to rip your customers off :S
I can't even download the older version to make my licence work all I can do now is download this (indie) version you are linking us to, which does nothing but link us to the Store (no registration option) :S
You are too greedy and I just hope it fires back on you someday.
I hope you get back to me soon I WANT A DATELINE VERSION THAT WORKS!

Hi hishamabri,

To license DateLine 1.0, you need to go to the DateLine menu and choose Register... If you have DateLine set to not show it's menu, simply open Preferences and choose Show Icon in Dock and then relaunch. Then you can use the DateLine menu Register... command. I will be releasing a 1.0.1 update shortly to make this process more obvious.

I'm sorry you feel upset, but please let me assure you I appreciate your support. I am not trying to rip anyone off, just making the decisions necessary to maintain the existence of this app.

I don't see how this is such a problem. I'm willing to pay and switch over to the mac app store. I love DateLine from day one. It's a high quality app for the best price. Plus I love to have infinite updates and be able to reinstall the app on my other macs or future macs. I only have one license so I have it only on one Mac. So in the long run this saves me money since I don't have to repurchase licenses for each Mac. So I like to thank the developer for making this move.

--Tsitra360

Hey Alex,

Not here to spit vitriol at you, one man development is hell.

Just wondering if the update to 2.0 will be free or a separate app? If it's free, I'll buy today, but if it's going to be a paid upgrade (well the MAS doesn't support paid upgrades yet, so I guess if it'll be a Dateline 2 app), I'll just use the old version until Dateline 2 is out.

Thanks!

Hey PowerLlama

DateLine 2 will be a free App Store upgrade for those who purchase 1.1+ on the App Store.

Cheers,

Alex

Wow, the anger of people over this is surprising.
I had another instance of a developer who wanted to switch updates to the App Store and provided a free download code for existing customers. I don't know the App Store economics of this for you the developer, but that was a good solution for the end users.

Hi jpaddock,

Apple provides 50 promo codes for developers. Unfortunately this is about 1/60 the number I would need to be able to upgrade all existing customers to the App Store version, so this is not a practical solution to the issue.

I am however offering a PayPal rebate for customers who upgrade, please see this post:

http://support.machinecodex.com/discussion/83/dateline-app-store-upgrade-special-offer/

Cheers

Alex

The App Store serves a hierarchy of needs.

First, it is great for Apple, it's boosts their revenue stream in the way that they charge developers to sell there. Apple also takes in profits every time we purcahse a product on the App store. It also gets over the long held idea that many non Apple users like to complain about "There isn't any software for the Mac compared to using a PC". Therefore Apple benefits from an increased acceptance of software and from more customers switching to the Apple platform. It also gives Apple control over access to what has been purcashed.

Second, it is good if not great for developers. Lots of developers seem to be making a great deal more money more easily than they used to with this new model. It is not so great because they are taking huge hits with customer dissatisfaction because customers are stunned to learn that their licenses or no longer valid, more correctly put, the customer has to re-purchase what they already purchased to continue to get upgrades which were already promised them or implied.

Third, it is entirely subjective if this is good or not good for the consumer, but the consumer benefits and costs are substantially down the scale from where Apple, then the developer, are benefiting from the App Store model. In most cases, the customer has to repurchase their software, which is not cool (to be clear Dataline is not really going to break my bank with the charge to move up and from what I am reading Machine codex devs are really working hard to be fair, kind and transparent so I am not blaming them).

As I see it, while I love using a Mac, Apple has a dark side. Witness the recent revelations of it's iOS tracking user's location data. Witness also it's huge facilities just completing in NC. Cloud computing is what the industry wants. Cute commercials are pushing the cloud concept now. But what is cloud? Among other things it will be a time when you no longer own a license to software like Word or Photoshop. You pay to rent space on their serves to use their copy only while you are working. That is where we are going with this cloud thing. With this in mind, Apple's forcing the user to repurchases and follow their strict licensing rules, comes under a slightly differently light. Looking at all the leagleeze needed to register for an app store account (I was just looking at it yesterday but decided not to get an App account for now) I remain unconvinced of Apple's sincerity and my own privacy as to what is on my own computer and if it is Apple's business or not.

I prefer doing business the old fashioned way, from the consumer to the developer.

David Groover